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Thread: XD Prefix M2 Carbines - Considering ATF Request to Remove from NFA Status

  1. #1
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    XD Prefix M2 Carbines - Considering ATF Request to Remove from NFA Status

    I'm not a member of NFATCA, though I probably should be. I registered in this forum early on, but I believe this will be my first post. You may know me from Machinegunboards.com, and/or Sturmgewehr.com, and/or Knob Creek.

    I'm currently considering making a request to ATF to have "XD" prefix "M2" marked, Inland manufactured Carbines removed from automatically being considered machine guns. I'd like to approach this under the name of the Carbine Club, and I have asked them (a cooperative collector association) to consider whether this is something they would like to pursue. I also want to check if NFATCA has any interest in it, which is the purpose of this post.

    M2 Carbines, and the various iterations of M1/M2 conversions, overstamps, and registered part sets are among the most confusing NFA items in the registry. At some point, ATF decided that anything marked "M2" is considered a machine gun. This makes sense on the surface, since almost all Inland M2's, and the limited Winchester manufactured M2's (Mostly M1/M2 Overstamps) were assembled into machine guns for our military. However, as further M2 production was cancelled by the government, Inland had manufactured some M2 receivers that never got assembled into machine guns. That is the key point...they were never assembled into machine guns, and should technically not be considered such. The exact number is unknown, but it's probably between 50 to 75 guns, and they were stamped with an "XD" serial number prefix. These Carbines were then presented to employees of Inland in Dayton, Ohio, some with special plaques, etc., and they were taken home without another thought as to their NFA status in 1945, because they were never considered machine guns by Inland, even though they were marked "M2."

    Recently on Facebook, one of these Carbines was highlighted, and the owner was informed that their Carbine was an NFA item. It had never been registered, and ended up being turned in to ATF, and almost certainly destroyed. Its serial number was XD43. I have included a photo of it below.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Anyway, while I do not personally know of any other examples that are out there, I'm sure there are more. I've heard people talk about them at OGCA, and online, and there are likely more of them in my general vicinity, since I live about 35 miles from the former Inland plant location. I'd like to see these guns become saved from potential destruction.

    Is this something that NFATCA would have any interest in pursuing? My current idea is to submit a letter from me, indicating the support of the Carbine Club, and NFATCA, requesting a variance to ATF for XD marked Inland M2 receivers, removing them from the NFA Registry, and possibly specifically listing them on the C&R list as regular firearms. I'm open to suggestion on this, which I'm soliciting here in this post. I do not yet have the support of either the Carbine Club, or NFATCA, and am just looking for input and support at this point.

    I look forward to any input that may be presented here on this board.

    Sincerely,

    David Albert
    dalbert@sturmgewehr.com
    NRA Life Member
    Past President, The American Thompson Association
    American Society of Arms Collectors
    Ohio Gun Collectors Association
    Thompson Collectors Association
    Carbine Club
    Garand Collectors Association
    Contributing Writer, Small Arms Review Magazine
    Co-Author, "Thompson Manuals, Catalogs, & Other Paper Items" Collector Guide
    One of the "Other Authors" of "The Ultimate Thompson Book," by Tracie L. Hill
    Eagle Scout, and Member of NESA

  2. #2
    We are currently evaluating M1/M2 set of issues for inclusion in our 2017 priority list.

    Jeff Folloder

    NFATCA Executive Director
    www.nfatca.org










  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExecDirector View Post
    We are currently evaluating M1/M2 set of issues for inclusion in our 2017 priority list.
    As an M1/M2 Carbine collector and aficionado, this statement has piqued my interest. Hopefully it is nothing to be very concerned about.

  4. #4
    There's a significant amount of contention involved. ATF says that some M2's are MG's. M2 and M1 receivers are identical. But Congress defined the full auto parts as the MG. Contention. Can the contention be resolved? That's what we are looking at.

    Jeff Folloder

    NFATCA Executive Director
    www.nfatca.org










  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExecDirector View Post
    There's a significant amount of contention involved. ATF says that some M2's are MG's. M2 and M1 receivers are identical. But Congress defined the full auto parts as the MG. Contention. Can the contention be resolved? That's what we are looking at.
    When I first read your previous post, I thought maybe it had something to do with transferable M2 kits.

    There is some debate in the Carbine community about the status of registered trigger packs. Some people claim that the registered M2 trigger housings put out by Fleming, Norrell and others were improperly registered (because they weren't one of the seven full auto parts exclusive to the M2 Carbine) and thus contraband. Others say these kits are in a legal gray area. Still others say that there is nothing to be concerned about. The debate doesn't appear to be going away. I suppose that one day, somebody will ask the ATF flat out what the story is with these registered packs.

  6. #6
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    RenegadeConservative,

    Yes, the trigger packs are a concern, though my own opinion is that if ATF approved them, with the various manners with which different M2's are registered, that they are just a part of the mix. My concern is with the XD marked M2's that were never manufactured as MG's in 1945, and are out there among the public, and would be desirable collector items for the Carbine community.

    Here are the different iterations of M2 issues that I see:

    • XD serial numbered Inland M2 receivers that were never assembled as MG's (Contraband, unless registered during Amnesty)

    • Originally marked M2's from Inland, and a potential few from Winchester (C&R)

    • M1 Receivers that were over-stamped "M2" at the factory, such as Winchester M2's (Should be C&R, but "muddy")

    • Various non-original M2 manufacturer M1's that have been overstamped "M2" as part of their non-original conversion (IBM, Rock-Ola, Saginaw, etc.)

    • Original manufacturer M1's (Inland and Winchester) that were overstamped "M2" as part of their non-original conversion (Think 1986 conversions in prep for Hughes Amendment)

    • 7-piece M2 parts sets, with serial numbers on various of the seven parts

    • Registered trigger packs

    • One other, odd conversion device that I have seen (I need to locate the details)

    • Universal and Plainfield manufactured, commercial M2 Carbines (Some will soon be C&R)

    • Other commercial manufacturer M1 Carbines that were converted, some of which were overstamped "M2," and some that were not


    If anyone has other examples, this would be a good place to list them.

    Thanks!

    David Albert
    dalbert@sturmgewehr.com
    NRA Life Member
    Past President, The American Thompson Association
    American Society of Arms Collectors
    Ohio Gun Collectors Association
    Thompson Collectors Association
    Carbine Club
    Garand Collectors Association
    Contributing Writer, Small Arms Review Magazine
    Co-Author, "Thompson Manuals, Catalogs, & Other Paper Items" Collector Guide
    One of the "Other Authors" of "The Ultimate Thompson Book," by Tracie L. Hill
    Eagle Scout, and Member of NESA

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by dalbert View Post
    Yes, the trigger packs are a concern, though my own opinion is that if ATF approved them, with the various manners with which different M2's are registered, that they are just a part of the mix.
    That is my personal opinion as well. John Norrell mentioned, in an interview with SAR, that he marked his M2 housings for about ten years before the ATF inspectors wanted it to be one of the seven deadly parts that bore the serial number. That was apparently right before the '86 cutoff. There is no telling how many registered housings he manufactured.

    My concern isn't with the part itself but instead that somebody will write a poorly written letter to the ATF and get an adverse opinion.

    My concern is with the XD marked M2's that were never manufactured as MG's in 1945, and are out there among the public, and would be desirable collector items for the Carbine community.
    I agree 100%.

    • One other, odd conversion device that I have seen (I need to locate the details)
    Could you be thinking of the S&H registered M2 slide that was for sale about three years ago? I thought long and hard over that one.

    There was also a never assembled stripped registered trigger housing that appeared on the market last year - that caused some heartburn over on one of the other boards I frequent.

    ...

    I love your board, David. I have learned a lot from you and the other guys over there.

    ...

    I am hoping that 2017 is a great year for those of us in the NFA community.
    Last edited by RenegadeConservative; 01-05-2017 at 03:59 AM.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExecDirector View Post
    There's a significant amount of contention involved. ATF says that some M2's are MG's. M2 and M1 receivers are identical. But Congress defined the full auto parts as the MG. Contention. Can the contention be resolved? That's what we are looking at.
    ExecDirector,

    I read through your post again, and am curious about two of your statements.

    1. "ATF says that some M2's are MG's." - ATF considers all M2 marked Carbines as machine guns. ATF says "Carbine receivers marked M-2 are machine guns, even though they may only be capable of semiautomatic fire." The preceding may be seen at the following link:

    https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearm...arms-section-1

    2. "But Congress defined the full auto parts as the MG." I do not think this was specifically addressed in legislation. In my understanding, it is an ATF regulation. If M2's were specifically addressed by Congress, could you please cite the code reference? It would be helpful, because that would mean that the effort would require a completely different approach.

    The contention, in my opinion, involves the various ways in which an M1 or M2 Carbine may be considered a machine gun, as per the list in my previous post.

    Thanks!

    David Albert
    dalbert@sturmgewehr.com
    NRA Life Member
    Past President, The American Thompson Association
    American Society of Arms Collectors
    Ohio Gun Collectors Association
    Thompson Collectors Association
    Carbine Club
    Garand Collectors Association
    Contributing Writer, Small Arms Review Magazine
    Co-Author, "Thompson Manuals, Catalogs, & Other Paper Items" Collector Guide
    One of the "Other Authors" of "The Ultimate Thompson Book," by Tracie L. Hill
    Eagle Scout, and Member of NESA

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by RenegadeConservative View Post
    Could you be thinking of the S&H registered M2 slide that was for sale about three years ago? I thought long and hard over that one.

    There was also a never assembled stripped registered trigger housing that appeared on the market last year - that caused some heartburn over on one of the other boards I frequent.
    Yes, I think the slide was it. I seem to recall it came in some kind of specially made and labeled wooden box. I think it's documented on the Machinegunboards.com M2 Carbine board, but I need to look for it when I get a chance.

    Quote Originally Posted by RenegadeConservative View Post
    I love your board, David. I have learned a lot from you and the other guys over there.
    Thank you very much! I've learned much from members there, also. What's your board name there?

    Quote Originally Posted by RenegadeConservative View Post
    I am hoping that 2017 is a great year for those of us in the NFA community.
    I agree 100%!
    NRA Life Member
    Past President, The American Thompson Association
    American Society of Arms Collectors
    Ohio Gun Collectors Association
    Thompson Collectors Association
    Carbine Club
    Garand Collectors Association
    Contributing Writer, Small Arms Review Magazine
    Co-Author, "Thompson Manuals, Catalogs, & Other Paper Items" Collector Guide
    One of the "Other Authors" of "The Ultimate Thompson Book," by Tracie L. Hill
    Eagle Scout, and Member of NESA

  10. #10
    I'll see if I can dig up more detail. Preparing for SHOT right now... And as you gentlemen are showing, there is a *lot* to this issue!

    Jeff Folloder

    NFATCA Executive Director
    www.nfatca.org










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