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Thread: CLEO sign off. Time line to be effective?

  1. #1
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    CLEO sign off. Time line to be effective?

    Great job removing CLEO signoff! Do we have a ball park estimate when the revised process will be in place?

    Thanks
    RFA
    Last edited by ready.fire.aim; 04-23-2012 at 04:41 AM.

  2. #2
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    Are there any other policies anticipated to go in place as a result of CLEO signoff being stricken? I've heard a lot of talk of tightening things up on trust requirements coming hand in hand.

    I'm fortunate enough to have a CLEO who doesn't even blink, usually walk in with my forms and I'm out with a signature in less than 15 minutes. Either way, I'm glad to see this, removes hassle and opens it up for a lot of people not as fortunate as me.

  3. #3
    It's a great unknown. There is no proscribed time frame for OMB to finish the new forms proposals and then get the whole thing published in the Federal Register for the required public comment.

    My *gut* tells me that it should be done by the end of the year. But that is nothing but a guess... Ideally, the new forms will include the silly citizenship requirement statements and have the excellent side benefit of eliminating that part as a separate process...

    As for trusts... NFA Branch has already tightened up on this. They actually check to make sure that your trust is correct and proper for your specific state, etc. Many of the cut and pastes that folks have been grabbing off the net to save a buck are absolutely worthless if improperly applied or used. Same goes for many applications of Legal Zoom, Quicken, etc. The documents just do not accomplish what they need to do to be legal and proper. I always boggle when I hear of folks willing to plunk down $20k for a machine gun, but will not spend the $400 to get their docs done right by a lawyer who actually knows what he/she is doing on NFA items.

    There is also an effort to formalize what many FFL/SOT's have been doing as a matter of course. When *I* deliver an NFA item to a trust, LLC, or other corporation, I always run a NICS on the actual person that is taking physical delivery. There have been cases of prohibited persons receiving and being in possession of NFA items via the trust/corp route and doing the NICS check for this gives one more layer of confidence.

    Jeff Folloder

    NFATCA Executive Director
    www.nfatca.org










  4. #4
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    John Brown

    Quote Originally Posted by ExecDirector View Post
    It's a great unknown. There is no proscribed time frame for OMB to finish the new forms proposals and then get the whole thing published in the Federal Register for the required public comment.

    My *gut* tells me that it should be done by the end of the year. But that is nothing but a guess... Ideally, the new forms will include the silly citizenship requirement statements and have the excellent side benefit of eliminating that part as a separate process...

    As for trusts... NFA Branch has already tightened up on this. They actually check to make sure that your trust is correct and proper for your specific state, etc. Many of the cut and pastes that folks have been grabbing off the net to save a buck are absolutely worthless if improperly applied or used. Same goes for many applications of Legal Zoo, Quicken, etc. The documents just do not accomplish what they need to do to be legal and proper. I always boggle when I hear of folks willing to plunk down $20k for a machine gun, but will not spend the $400 to get their docs done right by a lawyer who actually knows what he/she is doing on NFA items.

    There is also an effort to formalize what many FFL/SOT's have been doing as a matter of course. When *I* deliver an NFA item to a trust, LLC, or other corporation, I always run a NICS on the actual person that is taking physical delivery. There have been cases of prohibited persons receiving and being in possession of NFA items via the trust/corp route and doing the NICS check for this gives one more layer of confidence.
    Most of you will remember that the NFATCA started this entire CLEO process nearly five years ago. So many things at ATF have changed in that time that we don't know from one day to the next who will review the process at ATF and what additional requirements may be put in place before it is released. Like a freight train, this is definitely on the tracks and working its way home but man has it taken forever. My Dad always used to tell me that nothing good comes easy and this is one fine example of that.
    The truth of the matter is that we have no idea what has happened internally at ATF since we started this process. All we know is that this train is still on the tracks. In terms of the give and take we don't know the specifics but you can bet your hind quarter something has changed. Just keep your fingers crossed and the minute we know anything, this will be the place you will read it first.

  5. #5
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    Thanks for the info, and for the effort gents!

  6. #6
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    Looks like the proposed rule change is up for review?

    http://www.reginfo.gov/public/do/eAg...&RIN=1140-AA43

    However it looks like you will have to mail a copy of the applicaiton to the CLEO? and also requires photos and fingerprinting for all applicaitons including trust and corporations????

    Abstract: The Department of Justice is proposing to amend the regulations of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF) regarding the making or transferring of a firearm under the National Firearms Act. The proposed regulations would (1) add a definition for the term "responsible person"; (2) require each responsible person of a corporation, trust or legal entity to complete a specified form, and to submit photographs and fingerprints; (3) require that a copy of all applications to make or transfer a firearm be forwarded to the chief law enforcement officer (CLEO) of the locality in which the maker or transferee is located; and (4) eliminate the requirement for a certification signed by the CLEO.
    Last edited by Shermanator; 01-09-2013 at 03:24 PM.

  7. #7
    YES SIR! This is the very first step in OMB publication of the process...

    Jeff Folloder

    NFATCA Executive Director
    www.nfatca.org










  8. #8
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    Jeff,

    Of course this is showing up on other forums, and the a lot of people that have done trust or even those that have done LLC in the past feel like they are being thrown under the bus. The new rule changes specfically states that Fingerprints and Photos would be required for those submitting Form 1 or Form 4 for trust and LLC?

    Reading on another thread here (http://www.nfatcaforums.org/showthre...CLEO-Signature Post #4 and your reply in Post #5) you said that it was rumors that the new change was going to require all parties in a trust/LLC to submit fingerprints and photos, and that is EXACTLY what the it says in (1) and (2) in the rule change!!

    Strick all that is in italics here. well it seems that the rule change just says the person signing and submitting the form is the one that must do that. So is this something that NFATCA wanted or is it something that the ATF came up on their own?

    So can you please address those questions?

    EDIT:
    Basically removing what is in Italics but leaving it there, and adding in what is in the BOLD
    Last edited by Shermanator; 01-10-2013 at 06:48 PM.

  9. #9
    ATF was going to close up the "hole" that was allowing prohibited persons to acquire firearms through trusts and corps. That was going to happen regardless of the CLEO situation. As to HOW they are going to accomplish it, we really do not know. A Form 4 is for a transfer and a Form 1 is for making. There would be no additional transfer occurring and you can only make an item once... So perhaps they are envisioning a new "notification" system.

    Jeff Folloder

    NFATCA Executive Director
    www.nfatca.org










  10. #10
    The past few months ATF has been in radio silence with us and this is the first publication of their position. While we had inklings of one direction or the other, we knew that it would be a very fluid process and that much of it would not be divulged to us during "deliberation."

    We did not offer up anything in order to press getting CLEO removed (and it hasn't happened yet). We knew that the prohibited person via trust/corp issue was a primary concern of ATF's and we knew that they would do something. And rather than have many regulatory change fronts going, we knew they would create an "omnibus" effort. Even with fingerprints and photos, all of the BEST reasons for having a trust still exist: elimination of future transfer fees and paperwork, no probate, no wills...

    Jeff Folloder

    NFATCA Executive Director
    www.nfatca.org










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